The Auto Body Blog

34 responses so far ↓

• 1 Billy Duggins // Dec 30, 2009 at 10:41 pm

  I am a PPG cert. waterborne painter using envirobase. All the above mentioned is true regarding the EC700 clear. I do not agree with the final appearance. This is a “meaty” clear and it shows when it is applied. My advice, great for cut-ins,I have been told the new EC750(which i have not used) has a better final appearance. PPG also offers Waterborne compatible clears under theNEXA AQUABASE line which are also “onevisit” clears.

• 2 mike // Dec 30, 2009 at 11:08 pm

  Hey Billy, thanks for the comment. Its “meaty” as it is 50% solids and as you know uses no reducers for now. I think you will see this clear eventually become a 4:1:1 clear coat. I feel it needs to be reduced to get the clear to look like glass.

  Fluid tip size and air pressure will play a factor on how the clear will look. I use a Sata Jet 3000 RP digital and spray at 35 PSI using a 1.2 size tip. I am still playing around with the application process a little and I am feeling more confident now into week two. The clear is laying down for me way better now than it did when I first started spraying it.

  Like you said Billy, I am looking forward to the EC750 as I too heard that layes down smoother and is better for larger jobs.

  Thanks for the comment and hope to see you back again,

  ~Mike.

• 3 billy duggins // Jan 1, 2010 at 11:02 pm

  hey mike i want to say thanx for replying so quickly.
  I am still learning new things about this water. One of the original problems we encountered was finding a clear that would not ‘pop’ over water. I used the ec700 just this past thursday (12/31) and it too popped. I will say i feel the reason for the issue this time was from putting a too heavy of a coat on the second pass. we have been using d8152(global) very nice,but slow. I have seen some problems like i paint a qtr on a silver and blend the door,and after the bake the panels,especially the blend look like they have dry overspray on them. What causes this? my tech rep said the control coat is too thick so on the above mentioned job i went as far as to reduce up to 30%. Any ideas? I would love to be ale to bounce info off of an experienced water painter. thank you and i look forward o speaking with u again

• 4 mike // Jan 1, 2010 at 11:48 pm

  Hey Billy that’s no problem what so ever. I built this Blog to help other people all over the world. I hope we can chat some more again soon. I like to tack my base after I have finished the control coat and after it has flashed off. I tack my base just before I clear coat. I load the gun and bring it into the booth with me. I then tack the complete repair area and then go ahead and clear. This will decrease that dry look that you are speaking of. Do you use sealer?? If you do use sealer than tack that before you base, I have tried not tacking the sealer before I base and I will get that dry looking edge on my blended panels. So I tack my sealer now and I have no issues anymore with dry looking blend panels.

  That is what you are seeing on your blend panels, Dry Over spray from your first three coats of paint. Obviously I have not seen you apply the paint but it sounds to me like you need to step out your base coat. If you go three inches into the blend panel on your first coat, then go six inches on your second coat, and then go another two or three inches past your second coat with your control coat. That will help you achieve a smooth appearance on your blends. I just sprayed 1C0 Toyota silver and yesterday and had no issues with the blends. I use T490 as a wet bed and that helps my metallic colors lay down properly on blend panels.

  I also tried many different global clears and had issues with die back, popping etc. I found that 8150 and 894 worked the best for me with water. I use 894 for completes still as I use slow reducer with it and have never had issues. 8150 I used medium hardener and medium for my day to day production jobs. I am in a Juneair booth and the clears are doing what they are designed to do. I did however need to increase the bake cycle time on my booth an extra five minutes using the EC700 clear. I found that is was not quite dry after my 25 minutes. Now with a thirty minute cycle at 75, 70,70,70,70,25 degrees Celsius, it is bone dry.

  So I hope my reply has helped you and you can now solve the dry look to your blend panels. I will bring my video camera to work on Monday and shoot some video. I feel that this will help you out even further by seeing the blend process in action.

  Please feel free to ask any questions you wish Billy, we all help each other out here.

  Thanks,

  ~Mike.

• 5 billy duggins // Jan 3, 2010 at 9:45 am

  mike , i must say thanx again.
  I do use sealerifneeded but i blendin the sealer edge with thinner,and i have no issue with the sealer.The dry overspray i have at times seen on an entire panel. I will try tacking the base before the blends but i have noticed on some colorsthat take alot of coats (3r3 toyota) seem to stay some what ‘tacky’. I have also noticed that on some high metallic colors if i tack before lear then u can sometimes see tack marks.almst like u took a rag and wiped the meatallic away. I have only been using water about 9 months so i know with time and effort i willget t figured out,but i will keep chattng with you as u seem to have a wealth of information. thank you again,billy

• 6 mike // Jan 3, 2010 at 1:08 pm

  No worries Billy, we can chat for days about this stuff. It is what we love to do. So with the base staying tacky and looking like you get streak marks in it when you tack it. Here is the solution to that issue. First what kind of tack rag do you use, I need to know that.

  When I do a tri-stage or a color that is a low hider, where more than three coats of base is required, I let the base dry longer then I would if only three coats of base in total were applied. I need to know what kind of booth you are in. Is your booth fitted with jets or do you use tree stands and blowers. If you are in a booth that you can control the amount of heat the blowers put out, then bump the heat up when you are drying your last coat of base before the control coat and let that blow dry say 5-7 minutes longer then you normally would. I spray in a Juneair booth where I can control how much heat the booth puts out. My Quads are set to blow at six minutes at 40 degrees Celsius, or 104 degrees Fahrenheit.

  When I apply more coats of paint then normal, I hit the jets and extra six minutes before I apply the clear coat to make sure the base is 100% dry and can be tacked before clear coat. I let the control coat set up for ten minutes and then I blow the car/truck again with the blowers for another six minutes.

  PPG states that you should let the control coat air dry and no air should be blown on the panel/panels after the control coat is applied. You CAN blow the panels/panels dry after the control coat is applied, just not immediately after you have finished your control coat. You need to let the metallics orientate first and lay down for at least 10 minutes and then you can blow the vehicle another 3-5 minutes before you clear.

  I do NOT want to steer you away from what your PPG rep has told you so ask him/her first as they know your situation and conditions way better then I do.

  So a few questions for you so we can work out this issue. Are you using tree stands and blowers or is your booth equipped with jets. Where in the world are you located, humidity will play a factor in dry times. I need to know where you are !!! Very important !!!! How long between coats do you let the base dry and at what temperature is your booth set at when you are blowing the base dry. If we can narrow these things down then we can make your paint work look 110% every time.

  Please get back to me and we will run through the trouble shooting process together.

  Thanks Billy,

  ~Mike.

• 7 billy duggins // Jan 3, 2010 at 8:50 pm

  ok here goes.we are using iwata on tree stands(or just by hand) I am spraying in a NORAM
  normally i try to keep the booth ttemp between 82-88 degrees. i am located in Roanoke Virginia
  about 4 hrs south of washington dc I can tell an exaxt time betwen coats but nomally 3-5 minutes usally i blow and then i recoat. For initial tacking before i start painting i use a Sickens 123 yellw tck rag,but after i start spraying i use a blue ppg suggested tack rag(not sure o the name but it is what ppg give us) I am not worried about u teering me away,sometimes i feel like once a painter goes from the both to the store there outlook changes so that is why i am talking to u don get me wrong i have alot of good success with ehp,but i know things can be better.well there is th info u asked for so i will sitback and see what u write

• 8 mike // Jan 4, 2010 at 12:19 am

  Hey Billy. It looks to me like you are fairly close to the ocean but not right beside it. It would be an educated guess that is fairly humid in your home state. So I would suggest increasing the temperature in your booth if possible to say 90-95 degrees if possible after you spray the base on. That way it will get all of the water out of each coat 100%. Then turn up the booth again after you have applied the control coat and let dry an extra 2-3 minutes. If you are in a high production shop like me every minute counts but the overall quality of the job has to be really good.

  Let your manager or the owner of your shop know that you are going to wait an extra 2-3 minutes between coats and that you want to make sure, 100% that the base is perfectly dry before you clear coat. Using the EC700 clear will off set the times you are waiting betweens coats as you now do not have to wait 5 minutes in between coats of clear.

  As per your tack rags, I love the 123 tack rag, I use a similar tack rag called the Uni-rag. I use that all throught the base coat process as I know the Envirobase is 100% dry after each coat I apply. Your blue tack rags are Speciality tack cloths which I also have on hand. They work great also but do not last as long as say the 123 Sikkens tack rags do.

  Your booth looks good, is it this one here http://www.noraminc.com/M3+.html if so you should have no problems increasing the heat and letting the water dry a little longer with more heat added and the blowers running.

  Let me know how you made out after monday is over. I hope we can solve your issues and make the paint work flawless. Use T490 on your blend panels and see if your blends lay down for your smoothly and look perfect.

  Thanks Billy and good luck on monday.

  ~Mike.

• 9 billy duggins // Jan 4, 2010 at 8:01 am

  mike,
  yes that is the type of booth we have(the other is a saima) i am in southwest viginia. What temp do u spray at? Something else to consider in my situation is our booth is outside and due to our booth contractor our floor is unlevel,as we all know the performace of a booth starts in the pit.Our pit constantly has water in it,i know this does not help things. I am gloing to buy a stopwatch and try to get some exact numbers on dry times and flash times.I do use t490 thined 4-1 i will put it on all the blends and sometimes even on the repair area.Do u ever check viscosity?
  My tech rep that just came back from a ppg class at ohio said they put alot of enphasis on checking viscosity. I will let u know whagt today brings.
  Once again i must say thank you for taking time to chat with me.I lso hope others find youre blog and are back and forth helpful when they make the switch………billy

• 10 billy duggins // Jan 4, 2010 at 8:50 pm

  mke,
  well monday went well but didnt get to test otu soem newtechniqus much.i will however keep u informed. I wrote a comment on another page of youres about water borne paint.my question was what kind of gun(s) do u use? I have an iwata lph400-lv w/silver cap does pretty good. Which one is recomended by ppg? Silver,orange(extreme),purple? Also i have been told PPG recomends the w400-lv which i also have,i use to use it for clear,but switched back to a rp2000 w/1.4. Do you have any awnsers to these questions? as always i look forward to hearing from you. thanks billy

• 11 mike // Jan 4, 2010 at 10:31 pm

  Hello Billy, glad to hear your Monday went well. Here are the answers to your questions. I spray at 75 degrees Fahrenheit and I have my Quads set to blow at 104 degrees F. The booth cools down once the the Quads are set to stop blowing, back to 75 degrees spray temp. That might be why your blends are looking weird, try turning the booth down when you do your blends, I was talking with my tech rep today and he stated that 72-76 might work better for you when you are blending.

  I have three Iwata W-400 LV’s that I spray my base coat with, the one’s with the silver air cap. I use a Sata Jet 2000 Hvlp to spray my sealer with, I like the HVLP as it minimizes sealer over spray and I can keep small spot repairs isolated to one panel if I have to. I have two clear guns, an older RP Digital that I added a Sata Atom too, and a new Sata Jet 3000 RP Digital 1.2 which I use to spray the EC 700. You will find your clear will lay down better with a 1.2 tip as it atomizes the clear better than a 1.3 or 1.4 but if your gun is working for you than why change right.

  As per you viscosity question, I do not concern myself with the Din cup test, I am so busy everyday that it would be just one more thing to slow me down. If PPG wants to pay for me to check viscosity than I would be happy to do so for 10,000.00 extra a year if you know what I mean. I hope they take me up on that. So I DO NOT check viscosity.

  So your booth looks good other than water in your pit but I always have a little water in my pit also as I wash my booth floor a couple of times a day to keep the dust down as much as I can. I always tell my manager that dust in paint is FREE, I do not charge for that. So I hope this answers your questions Billy and if I missed something than please feel free to ask any more questions you may have.

  Looking forward to chatting with you again soon,

  ~Mike.

• 12 billy duggins // Jan 4, 2010 at 11:06 pm

  mike,
  u said u use a w400lv not an lph 400 lv?
  on youre w400 does the aircap look like a conventional aircap? i was talking with my ppg rep today and he seems to think i have to change my w400-lv with a different cap. the lph 400 is the one with different caps,are u famlliar with them? thanks for the info and i will try to decrease my air temp durin the spraying process
  billy

• 13 mike // Jan 5, 2010 at 12:12 am

  Yeah here is a picture of the exact gun I use Billy, http://www.iwata-medea.com/index.php/products/w400/ I feel they work awesome for the water. I have tried the Tekna and also the DeVilbiss and I still like the Iwata far better than those others guns I have listed. I know other painters who like those guns but I still love my Iwata.

  I have never used the LPH-400 but I would love to try one and see what they are like.

  Yeah see if the decrease in temperature works better for your blending process Billy, please let me know if that helps the look of the blend. If it does not work then we will figure out our next course of action.

  Be well and have a great Tuesday,

  ~Mike.

• 14 billy duggins // Jan 5, 2010 at 6:43 am

  thank you mike im going to give it a whirl. Im going to try my w400 and see what happens.
  The problem i see with turning the booth temp down to 75 is it will not have enough time to bump up the temp to help dry water out,but i will try anything once,sometimes twice to make sure i was right the 1st time.I greatly appreciate all the help and i wil let you know how things go. One more question, how long have u been spraying water?
  again thanks a milion

• 15 billy duggins // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:46 pm

  MIKE,
  i have been playing with the booth temp and trying to tack after each coat……so far so good!
  i not sure exactly where u are but what do u do in the summer,how do you keep the spray temp down around 75?

• 16 mike // Jan 7, 2010 at 11:47 pm

  Hey Billy, sorry for the slow reply to your last question. Been spraying water now for two years, and also I was selling and supporting it technically for one year. I would go out and get the shop to convert and then I would go in and train the painter/painters after the shop converted. So I have been working with PPG and spraying it for quite sometime now.

  I am glad to hear things are working out better for you Billy. I am located in Calgary, Alberta Canada. In the summer months it is harder to keep the booth running cooler as you know. When it gets hotter I ruduce the basecoat more then 20% for metallics, I go 30% when its hot out on my blends.
  That seems to control the metalics better on the blend panels. That combats the heat problem.

  Are you using your W-400 to spray the base now Billy or are you using your Sata? Please get back to me and let me know what gun you are using to spray the base.

  Thanks,

  ~Mike.

• 17 billy duggins // Jan 8, 2010 at 7:00 am

  thanks mike,
  I am using an LPH-400 lv4 and i am using a sata 3000hvlp with a wsb kit. I tried to use my w400 but i dont think i have the proper air cap for water. my cap looks like a conventional “rp”cap.My lph looks like it has an “x” cut into the nozzle.On youre w400 which aircap do u have a and what does it look like?again i must say thank you and look forward to chatting with u in the near future.
  billy

• 18 Robert // Jan 8, 2010 at 7:50 pm

  Hi mike been using dupont WB this week seem to be easy . You keep spraying dont have to stop have to keep panels wet. all the rest of the products seem easy use also.send me your address so i can send you one of my tool Reagards Rrobert Greer

• 19 mike // Jan 9, 2010 at 7:11 pm

  Hello Robert, yeah I heard Dupont is alright but I alos heard their color matches suck. Anyways, I will e-mail you my address so you can send me one of your cool thumb guns.

  Thanks and hope you are doing great,

  ~Mike.

• 20 billy duggins // Jan 11, 2010 at 7:02 pm

  hey mike did u see my question about the w-400 that you use?
  it is just before roberts question.
  billy

• 21 mike // Jan 12, 2010 at 12:23 am

  Hey Billy, sorry I must have missed the question. The Iwata gun I use is this one here, http://www.whosedepot.com/servlet/Detail?no=35

  It works awesome for PPG Envirobase. I use the 1.3 mm fluid tip to spray the base. These are the guns PPG gives you here in Canada when a shop converts to water. Hope all is working out for you.

  Thanks,

  ~Mike.

• 22 billy duggins // Jan 12, 2010 at 7:03 am

  thnk you mike
  i think mine is different than youres because my air cap says
  w400-lv2 that may be the difference.

• 23 Seamus // Jan 30, 2010 at 5:00 pm

  I sprayed ec700 on a front end job on friday the 29th. I use a lph 400 with a silver air cap. the job came out great. I am putting a lot of air through the air horns. My pattern is dialed way out to achieve the same fan relative to deltron 4000. It is obvious it is really thick. I am not happy with how meaty my side panels look. After an immediate bake the panels flowed and look alright realative to oem finish. I use a 1.3 cap at 16 pounds, but i think with some fan and fluid abjustment, a really slick side finish can be achieved. I have only sprayed the clear twice, but I like it a lot more than deltron. I am interested to here others set up and results.
  Seamus (richmond, va)

• 24 mike // Jan 31, 2010 at 1:08 am

  Hello Seamus, thanks for your comment and the info you have provided for us here. I have the EC700 clear dialed in now and my side panels as well as flat panels are looking like glass. I spray at a way higher air pressure, I use a Sata Jet 3000 RP 1.2 which is the recommended fluid tip size for the EC700 clear coat.

  At first I tried to lay the first coat heavy like I wanted it to look, but found once I put the second coat on like the first, the clear would run. I use the ECH7080 hardener exclusively. So now I put my first coat on a little drier and then hammer the second coat on back to back. So as a result of tweeking my application processes, I am now very pleased with how the new clear is looking.

  Thanks for your comment Seamus, I hope to see you comment again. Please let me know what you are doing with your air pressure, you might need to turn it up to say 25-30 psi.

  ~Mike.

• 25 seamus // Feb 21, 2010 at 10:20 am

  Hey mike,
  tried turning up my pressure and my sides are looking better. I sprayed standox for some years and it was thick, but not as thick as ec700. My fear with the lph400 was splitting my pattern with pressure higher than 18 psi. So far at 25 psi my pattern is fine wide open and has no dry spot in the middle. My use per panel is also good( have to keep material bills looking good) so i haven’t lost transfer efficiency. With my adjustments due to your advice my jobs are looking better with each application.
  Ec 700 is thick!
  Seamus(richmond, va)

• 26 mike // Feb 23, 2010 at 1:22 am

  Yeah that’s awesome Seamus, when you turn up the pressure the fan will become larger so maybe turn the fan width down and you can then turn up the pressure a bit more to get better flow. Also I have tried using 5% reducer with the EC700 and it looks even better then with just adding hardener. I use Global 871 reducer and between coats I let it flash 30 seconds before I go back to back.

  Glad to hear you are having better success,

  ~Mike.

• 27 Ryan // Mar 10, 2010 at 2:25 pm

  Hey Seamus, I have a question about your gun setup with the lph.400. I am using the same 1.3 and having a hard time laying this ec700 down on side panels. What do you have your material control knob set to? and on your first pass how much clear are you laying down? This clear seems like if I get it dialed in I should be able to save some time and the shop some money.
  Thanks

  Ryan

• 28 Will // Jun 9, 2010 at 8:49 pm

  Hi, i am kind of new to EC700. Just wondering. Do you guys use a W400 for your clear coat? I asked my paint rep a few days ago…and he said he doesn’t know of anyone who uses W400. He could not provide me with any info. What size of tip and cap should I use if i am spraying EC700 with a W400? Thanks in advance.

• 29 mike // Jun 10, 2010 at 8:26 pm

  Hey Will, I use a W-400 LV with a 1.3 mm tip. This gun I found is way better than the Sata Jet 3000 1.2 I was spraying with to start with. I bought another gun W-400 LV to try it with the EC-700/750 and found it works awesome.

  I put the first coat down medium, not pebbly and not glassy, just a medium. I wait for 2 minutes and then spray the next coat on wet and glassy.

  I have pretty much got it dialed in now.

  Thanks for the question Will, hope to see you back on the Blog here soon.

  ~Mike.

• 30 Will // Jun 11, 2010 at 12:01 am

  Thank you! Today is my first time spray with the EC700 with 7080 hardener, it was great! The clear is awesome! It seems like it is easier to spray than the Sherwin Williams clear I used before. I was spraying a front end. I started with 1 medium coat, waited 1 minute, spray another medium coat, and then quickly spray a light coat. It looks not bad, not the best, but not bad at all. I will try your method with 1 medium and 1 wet coat tomorrow and see if it will look better =) By the ways, I love your blog, I will come more often, cheers!

• 31 mike // Jun 11, 2010 at 12:25 am

  Thanks Will, glad to hear you love the clear coat. It took me awhile to dial it in but once you get it the EC-700 looks awesome. At first my rep stated a 1.2 mm tip was perfect for the clear but we did a little more testing and the 1.3 Iwata W-400 LV was the perfect gun and tip size for the EC-700.

  I know after spraying it for a few weeks you will get to love it and your paint work will become spectacular. You can see me spraying it at collisionhub by clicking this link http://www.collisionhub.com/video/application-processes-using

  Thanks Will and feel free to ask me any questions you wish or if you have problems please let me know and we can trouble shoot here.

  Thanks,

  ~Mike.

• 32 Ryan // Aug 6, 2010 at 2:09 pm

  Hey Mike,
  What do you think about the EC750? My PPG rep gave me both the 700 and 750. I used all the 700 with every gun I have except my w400LV and I was having some hard times dialing it in. I have just started to dip into my 750 with the LPH 400 1.3. So far I’m liking it. Just does not dry at low bake temp so i turned it up to 170F for about 30 min and i got some minor pop. So I’m still working on the right bake setting. Also just read some of your previous post about the w400LV. I have one more car to spray today and I think I’m going to break the w400 and give it another chance.
  Awesome video by the way!
  Ryan

• 33 mike // Aug 6, 2010 at 6:21 pm

  Hey Ryan, what’s happening! I think the EC 750 is OK, I’m not jumping for joy or noth’in. Its NOT 894 that’s for sure. I cried when I used the last of my 894. Out with the old and in with the new hey Ryan.

  Anyways, I use the 750 for completes ONLY. Everything else I spray is with the 700. With your popping issue, don’t bake it that hot. Only go 150F and you will be good. You can use a cap full of DX84 ENHANCER and that will help the clear harden up better. Also what you can do before you clear is bake the base for 5-10 minutes before you clear. That way you will be rid of the popping. If you use sealer and are using slow reducer, switch to a medium reducer and that will help the popping issue as well.

  With your Iwata gun for clear, crack the fluid needle out four threads on the dial and spray at 35Lbs. I find the RPS cups work much better for the clear than the PPS cups. I switched to the RPS cups for my clear and found the appearance looks much better than PPS did.

  One more quick thing Ryan, spray the 700 clear on and let it set up for three minutes then hit it again, I find a little flash time between coats is good for flow and overall look.

  Please keep me informed as to how it is working for you. Thanks for the kind words on the video, I might shoot another soon.

  Thanks,

  ~Mike.

• 34 Ryan // Aug 9, 2010 at 1:30 pm

  Hey Mike,
  I sprayed the 750 for my last car on Friday and I liked it with the w400. I can see that it would be a better clear for completes so I’m going to order up some 700 this week.

  I have been using Deltrons DC4010(I think is the lower VOC version of the DC3000/4000) for the last 5 years or so and I can get it to look amazing! But It is such a sensitive clear when it comes to popping and die back even at air dry temps and it buffs like concrete if it sits for more then a day so I have decided to make a switch.

  I’m in Southern California and they are very strict as far as VOC are concerned and as I recall they outlawed DX84 about two years ago. So I will stick with backing it at a lower temp.

  Yeah, I noticed on the video you switched from the PPS for your clear. I have never used the RPS before or heard much about it. I thought they were all basically similar and had nothing to do with how clear would lay out. I’m interested to hear the difference. The shop that I’m at is a smaller shop that really keeps a tight end on the paint material bill so I would get questioned if I purchased the RPS when I have been using the PPS for about 6 years now.

  Thanks for your info Mike!
  -Ryan

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